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The Windows Boot Spinner Is a Font, Not an Animation
OperatingSystems Post #5975, on Apr 24, 2024 in TG

The Windows Boot Spinner Is a Font, Not an Animation

Why is this OperatingSystems meme funny?

Level 1: A Flipbook in a Font

Imagine you draw a simple cartoon of a spinning wheel in a little flipbook. Each page has the wheel turned just a bit more than the last page. When you flip through the pages quickly, the wheel looks like it’s moving. Now imagine hiding each of those wheel drawings inside what looks like ordinary letters in a special alphabet book. That’s basically what Windows did for its loading spinner! Instead of using a normal picture or video for the spinning dots you see when the computer starts, Windows hid a tiny cartoon of the spinner inside a font (which is like an alphabet file for the computer). Each “letter” in this secret font isn’t a real letter at all, but one picture of the dots in a certain position. When the computer boots up, it quickly swaps through these special characters one by one – just like flipping through the flipbook pages – and you see the dots spin in a circle.

Why is this funny or cool? It’s because it’s so unexpected. It’s like finding out a beautiful animated sign was made using regular old light bulbs blinking in a pattern, or discovering a secret message hidden in an alphabet soup. Developers and tech enthusiasts chuckle at this because it shows how something that looks fancy and dynamic (those spinning dots) is actually built from something very simple and old-fashioned (text characters!). It’s a clever little secret: the Windows startup animation is basically letters doing a dance. Even if you’re not a computer expert, it’s a bit like learning a magic trick – now you know the spinner is just the computer rapidly printing a bunch of funny “letters” you never knew existed. It makes us smile because it reveals the playful, inventive side of how computers work behind the scenes.

Level 2: Actually a Font

In plain terms, this meme is pointing out that the little loading circle you see when Windows boots up is actually drawn from a font instead of an image. The screenshot shows the Windows Character Map tool open with a font called Segoe Boot Semilight. In that grid of characters, instead of the alphabet, you see a bunch of dots and curved shapes. Those are the font’s glyphs – basically the pictures or shapes that the font will draw for certain characters. Normally, a font’s glyphs are letters (A, B, C…) or symbols (@, #, $), but here the glyphs are each like a frame of the spinning dot animation. When put in sequence and updated rapidly, those frames make the spinner you recognize on the boot screen.

Let's break down some key terms and elements to make this clearer:

  • Windows Boot Spinner: The rotating dots that appear on your screen when Windows is starting. It’s a loading indicator. Instead of being a video or a GIF, it’s made by cycling through a series of images of dots-in-a-circle.
  • Segoe Boot Semilight: This is a special font file in Windows. Segoe is the family name (used in many Windows interfaces), and “Boot Semilight” is a variant meant for the boot screen. This font doesn’t contain normal letters for typing out a document; it contains those dot shapes and arcs that make up the spinner graphic.
  • Character Map: A built-in Windows application that lets you view all the characters in any font. The meme’s image is the Character Map displaying the Segoe Boot Semilight font. Each little box in the grid is one character from that font. You can see lots of nearly identical dots and curved shapes – that’s the animation broken into individual pieces.
  • Unicode and Private Use: Unicode is the standard system of numeric codes that represent characters from virtually every writing system (and many symbols and emojis). “Private Use” areas in Unicode are ranges of codes that aren’t assigned to any standard symbol – they’re left open for individuals or companies to use for whatever custom characters they need. In the screenshot, when it highlights "U+E0A1: Private Use", it’s showing that this particular character code (E0A1 in hex) isn’t a normal letter or emoji; it’s one that Windows chose to use internally. Microsoft filled that spot with a glyph of the spinner. Essentially, U+E0A1 is one frame of the spinner animation in this font.
  • Glyph Animation Frames: Think of a glyph as the picture a font shows for a character. An animation frame is one still image in a sequence of images that when shown quickly one after another create motion. Here, each glyph (dot or arc shape) is one still image of the spinner at a certain rotation. The system draws them in order (for example, U+E0A0, then U+E0A1, U+E0A2, ... and so on) to animate the spinner. Each step makes the dots appear to rotate.

So, putting it together: during the boot process, Windows needs to show you something so you know it’s working – that’s the spinner. But at that early stage, it’s easier and more reliable to use text rendering than fancy graphics. The developers created a font with the necessary pictures. When Windows is loading, it’s effectively printing a special line of text on the screen, but that text is composed of those custom spinner characters. By updating that text (cycling through the characters) rapidly, you see an animation. It’s a smart little workaround that most users would never notice. Only if you poke around in system files or open Character Map (like the person in the tweet did) would you discover that the spinning circle is coming straight from a font. For a new developer or an enthusiast, that’s a “wait, seriously?!” kind of revelation that shows how deep OperatingSystem details can influence something you see every day.

Level 3: Old Trick, New Boot

This meme sprang from a tweet marveling at a hidden gem of Windows internals: the familiar Windows boot spinner isn’t a GIF or a coded drawing routine at all, but a sequence of font characters. For seasoned developers, it’s both hilarious and nostalgic. Microsoft has a history of using fonts to draw UI elements – remember the Marlett font in Windows 95 that rendered window control icons, or the classic Wingdings/Webdings fonts full of symbols? Here we are in 2024, and a modern Windows is still sneaking UI graphics into fonts. It’s an old trick wearing new boots (quite literally boot glyphs). Seeing the Segoe Boot Semilight font reveal dozens of spinning-dot shapes is a "wow, they really did that!" moment. It makes experienced devs smirk because it feels like a practical joke by the OS developers: “It’s not a fancy animated image, it’s just text – gotcha!”

The humor lies in the UX irony. We expect a slick loading animation to be some dedicated graphic, maybe drawn with vectors or a tiny video. Instead, the OS is effectively saying, “Eh, I’ll just reuse the text system.” It’s as if the Windows team thought, “We already have a text renderer that works, why not make the spinner a font?” For a senior engineer, this resonates as a pragmatic solution born out of constraints. Early in the boot process, you don’t have the full DirectX graphics pipeline or complex UI framework loaded. But you certainly have the ability to draw text on the screen (you might need to display a "Preparing Automatic Repair" or a boot menu in plain text). So the engineers repurposed that capability to also draw the loading indicator. It’s a case of using what you’ve got: if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail – if all you reliably have at boot is text, then the spinner might as well be text.

We’ve seen this pattern before in different guises. Web developers, for example, used to use icon fonts (like FontAwesome) to render icons before SVGs became widespread – letters and symbols standing in for images, because fonts scale well. In Windows’ case, the devs composed their own little icon font for the boot loader. That Segoe Boot Semilight font is essentially a sprite sheet, except implemented as a font file. Senior devs find it amusing because it’s a blend of high-level UX polish and low-level OperatingSystems cleverness. It’s the kind of thing you discover by poking around with the Character Map tool on a late night, and it immediately makes you say “of course they did that!” while shaking your head and smiling. This reinforces an unwritten truth in software development: behind every smooth user experience, there’s often a simple, crafty solution (or an outright hack) making it work under the hood. And when that secret is revealed – like an animation hiding in a Unicode font – the developer community collectively nerds out.

Level 4: Spinning in the Private Use Area

Windows’ boot spinner uses Unicode’s Private Use Area (PUA) code points to hide its frames inside a specialized font. At a low level, this is a clever coupling of character encoding and OS boot constraints. The early Windows bootloader environment has limited graphics capabilities before the full GUI is up, but it can render font glyphs. So Microsoft embedded the spinner shapes into a font (aptly named Segoe Boot Semilight). Each tiny dot and crescent arc you see in the Character Map corresponds to a glyph in this font. The status bar in the screenshot shows U+E0A1: Private Use – that code point sits in a Unicode range (E000–F8FF in the Basic Multilingual Plane) reserved for custom symbols. In Segoe Boot Semilight, Microsoft defined those private codes to be the frames of the spinner animation. Essentially, the boot process prints a sequence of these private-use glyphs as if they were characters, cycling through glyph animation frames to create the illusion of a spinning circle.

Using a font for the spinner is a resource-savvy hack grounded in Operating System design. Because these glyphs are vector shapes (just like letters in a TrueType font), they scale cleanly to any screen resolution and color scheme. This is crucial for a boot screen that must run on everything from tiny tablets to giant 4K displays without looking pixelated. By leveraging the text rendering pipeline (which is initialized early for drawing basic UI or BitLocker prompts), Windows avoids loading an image or sprite during boot. The UnicodeSupport for custom glyphs allows the OS to treat an animation as text data – an elegant trick. The boot code can simply increment through Unicode values (0xE0A0, 0xE0A1, 0xE0A2, …) and draw each corresponding glyph on the screen. It’s exploiting the fact that even in a minimalist boot environment, drawing a character from a font is an available primitive. The result? A smooth animated UX element delivered by one of the lowest-level, most stable systems in a computer: text rendering.

This approach highlights a blend of low-level ingenuity and standards. CharacterEncoding in Unicode is flexible enough that an OS can co-opt unused code points for its own purposes without conflicting with real text. If you copied one of those spinner characters and pasted it elsewhere, you'd likely see nothing or a placeholder unless Segoe Boot Semilight is active – that’s by design. It keeps the spinner frames essentially invisible and harmless outside their intended context. Under the hood, Windows’ boot sequence is doing something almost poetic: it’s using the same machinery that draws letters and emojis to draw a tiny rotating UXDesign graphic. This deep cut of system design delights kernel enthusiasts and font nerds alike, because it shows how even OperatingSystems employ creative shortcuts (born of necessity and clever engineering) to get the job done.

Description

This meme is a screenshot of a tweet from the user Xeno (@XenoPanther) that reveals a piece of technical trivia. The tweet reads, "Did you know that the spinner seen in modern Windows boot screens is stored as a font?" Below this text is a screenshot of the Windows Character Map utility. The application window shows the font "Segoe Boot Semilight" is selected. The character grid displays a series of glyphs that are actually the individual frames of the familiar dotted circle loading animation from the Windows boot screen. The bottom of the window indicates these are in a private use area of the font. The humor comes from the surprising and clever engineering hack of implementing a loading animation not as a video, GIF, or drawn graphic, but as a sequence of characters in a font. For senior developers, this is an amusing insight into the creative, low-level solutions required for processes like OS booting, where full graphics capabilities may not yet be available. It highlights how engineers use unconventional methods to solve problems under strict constraints

Comments

123
Anonymous ★ Top Pick Implementing a loading spinner as a font is peak 'we need this to work before the graphics driver loads' energy
  1. Anonymous ★ Top Pick

    Implementing a loading spinner as a font is peak 'we need this to work before the graphics driver loads' energy

  2. Anonymous

    Of course the Windows boot spinner lives in Segoe Boot - when the graphics stack isn’t up yet, you do what any seasoned dev would: hijack the Private-Use Unicode range and let DrawText() handle your 60 FPS animation

  3. Anonymous

    This is peak 'it's not a bug, it's a feature' energy - Microsoft engineers storing boot animations in a font file because when you're rendering graphics before the graphics subsystem loads, you work with what you've got. Next they'll tell us BSOD error codes are actually just really aggressive emoji

  4. Anonymous

    Ah yes, the classic Microsoft engineering approach: 'We need a boot spinner.' 'Just make it a font.' 'But shouldn't we use SVG or - ' 'FONT. IT. NOW.' Turns out when you're Microsoft, every problem looks like a TrueType nail. Though I'll admit, storing animation frames as glyphs in a Private Use Area is actually brilliant - zero dependencies, hardware-accelerated rendering via the font engine, and it ships with the OS. It's the kind of elegant hack that makes you simultaneously respect and question the Windows team's architectural decisions. Next you'll tell me the BSOD is just a really aggressive CSS theme

  5. Anonymous

    Peak OS engineering: the Windows boot spinner is a font - use the one rendering path guaranteed pre-driver, animate Private Use Area glyphs, and ship “progress” as typography

  6. Anonymous

    Boot spinners as fonts: Because bootloader devs knew trig for arcs wastes cycles when font engines are preloaded and GPU-ready

  7. Anonymous

    Of course the Windows boot spinner is a font - vector glyphs render before the graphics stack is up, so the first thing your machine boots is a kerning demo

  8. D Y 2y

    Spritemap

    1. @SamsonovAnton 2y

      Too easy and much less resource-consuming. 🤓

      1. D Y 2y

        Don't sure need to measure. Font is vector, usually. Spritemap is rastr. So it can take more place.

        1. @SamsonovAnton 2y

          1 bpp bitmap of fixed resolution vs multiple vectors with floating-point parameters? I doubt it. However, I was referring to CPU consumption when rendering curves vs painting bitmaps.

          1. @ZgGPuo8dZef58K6hxxGVj3Z2 2y

            Bitmaps don’t scale

            1. @SamsonovAnton 2y

              Who cares? Are Windows icons scalable, or still pre-rendered raster images?

              1. @ZgGPuo8dZef58K6hxxGVj3Z2 2y

                It depends which ones. But the later ones are fonts too. Check MDL2 assets or fluent icons on google

                1. @SamsonovAnton 2y

                  I mean the icons what are used for application shortcuts and document type identification in Explorer. Aren't they still essentially the same ICO they used to be since 1990-s? And boot-screen animation is many times less critical for UI scalability than desktop images.

                  1. @ZgGPuo8dZef58K6hxxGVj3Z2 2y

                    Yes those are but thats legacy component. Nowdays packages should have icons not plain exe files

                  2. @ZgGPuo8dZef58K6hxxGVj3Z2 2y

                    And the boot screen is kinda important it does have a lot of places where it van show you progress of something. Like rollback or disk check or install status or automatic repair

          2. @MadDelBastard 2y

            1bpp bitmap looks worse than ttf, because bitmap not uses AA, also Windows usually shows other text on same screen like "Welcome" and uses ttf anyway. So there is no point to use bitmaps in this case I think.

            1. @CcxCZ 2y

              In context of text legibility hard disagree there. Especially on lower resolution the difference is massive IME. (I had many angry rants on this topic in the context of early Android devices with 320x240 screens and such - and no way to select or even install bitmap font which would make the text at such resolution actually legible) However this is just pretty animation effect and I believe they do have scalable text on the screen already, so *shrug*. The font shaper will most likely prerender the glyphs to set resolution anyway.

              1. @MadDelBastard 2y

                in this case charset for loading icon will be prerendered too, because both outputs just textout ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

                1. @CcxCZ 2y

                  Yup. it doesn't really matter here. Also I'm the kind of person that really wants to see the kernel/init/rc logs by default.

      2. @ZgGPuo8dZef58K6hxxGVj3Z2 2y

        Fonts are efficient af

    2. @ZgGPuo8dZef58K6hxxGVj3Z2 2y

      Nope its vector

  9. @ZgGPuo8dZef58K6hxxGVj3Z2 2y

    At least on windows

  10. @ZgGPuo8dZef58K6hxxGVj3Z2 2y

    Ms has a lot of patents on improving it

  11. @ZgGPuo8dZef58K6hxxGVj3Z2 2y

    And rendering resolution independently

  12. @ZgGPuo8dZef58K6hxxGVj3Z2 2y

    Since windows 8 scaling is pretty much a key point

  13. @ZgGPuo8dZef58K6hxxGVj3Z2 2y

    And fonts have a lot of enginering to make them look good on weird scaling factors or fontsizes

  14. @ZgGPuo8dZef58K6hxxGVj3Z2 2y

    As they contain optional metadata for grid snapping

  15. @ZgGPuo8dZef58K6hxxGVj3Z2 2y

    This is a hint where to round the floats in case it doesn’t align with the pixel grid of your screen. Then fonts dont look like they used different strength for different lines in the charavter

  16. @ZgGPuo8dZef58K6hxxGVj3Z2 2y

    1 char has at most just a few triangles and even old af PCs can do that

  17. @CcxCZ 2y

    Window decorations in Win9X were also done by special font.

    1. @ZgGPuo8dZef58K6hxxGVj3Z2 2y

      Yup very efficient

  18. @endisn16h 2y

    they render fonts in the kernel btw 💀💀💀💀

    1. @Agent1378 2y

      You place the skulls like it is a bad thing

      1. @purplesyringa 2y

        because it is?

        1. @Agent1378 2y

          It's not. It's for performance. Windows graphical performance was a lways a priority and it still is much better then for example X. Linux has been suffering from userspace graphics for decades.

          1. @purplesyringa 2y

            hmm, maybe. i guess i'm just thinking as a server gal. lack of exploit vectors matters more than bits of performance for me

          2. @CcxCZ 2y

            Ring 0 doesn't make code run magically faster.

            1. @Agent1378 2y

              Yes, thats what X was telling us for years and now they plan to move to the kernel at least partially, LOL. It's not the ring 0 it's the thing you do there, bare metal instead of another syscall

              1. @CcxCZ 2y

                WTF are you talking about? Ring 0 is about as bare metal as you get (via documented means anyway). X11 always was primarily thin client network protocol in it's design. This has nothing to do with kernel mode and all with copying data around and interacting back and forth between processes. But there has been optional direct rendering in there (opengl/mesagl) literally since 90s.

                1. @Agent1378 2y

                  So why then X was always considered sluggish? Are they always using all these network protocols for the local machine rendering?

                  1. @purplesyringa 2y

                    Yes

                  2. @CcxCZ 2y

                    Generally yes.

                    1. @Agent1378 2y

                      Well I can only ROFL to that😁😁😁😁😁

                      1. @purplesyringa 2y

                        I mean, no one even thought X would be used for local graphics back then

                        1. @Agent1378 2y

                          20 years passed, X or derivatives are still used. Write new clean solution, people!

                          1. @CcxCZ 2y

                            Personally I'm fan of https://arcan-fe.com/about/ It supports both X11 and Wayland interfaces as well as it's own shared memory interface (unified for video, audio and input). And it has reasonable security model for a change.

                          2. @purplesyringa 2y

                            Guess what it's called?

                            1. @Agent1378 2y

                              What?

                              1. @purplesyringa 2y

                                Wayland

                                1. @Agent1378 2y

                                  So, is every Linux using it? Does it make windows as agile and responsive as windows on Windows are?😁

                                  1. @purplesyringa 2y

                                    It's been a long time since I've used Windows as a main OS, but subjectively I'd say it's quite performant

                                    1. @purplesyringa 2y

                                      Not every Linux distribution uses it, but it's getting increasingly popular, is a default almost everywhere, and mainstream software typically supports Wayland

                                      1. @Agent1378 2y

                                        Hahaha LOL. I switched to Mint after Ubuntu went unity🤮 and look here https://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?t=389541

                                    2. @Agent1378 2y

                                      Since 2011 I only have Linux as vmware guest on windows host so I don't know either

                                  2. @CcxCZ 2y

                                    No but now you can have non-rectangular windows. Progress! (TBF I found any recent Windows install to be pretty bad UI latency wise. Which is less about drawing primitives and more of every application being a resource hog by default.)

                                2. @Agent1378 2y

                                  LV426 visited?😁

                                3. @CcxCZ 2y

                                  Not a fan myself. It's very Freedesktop who at start claimed to work on "simple compatible subset across desktop interfaces", but ended up being complexity for the sake of complexity and pushers of Gnome nonsense. In this case mostly doing bad design from start and instead of rearchitecturing they just pile workarounds and additions.

                        2. @CcxCZ 2y

                          That was actually one of the major improvements the libre XFree86 project did early on https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT-SHM

                          1. @purplesyringa 2y

                            TIL, thanks

                      2. @CcxCZ 2y

                        For most applications it matters very little. Or matteted at the time. The rendering was CPU-bound and the resolution was small. Today most things are bound by RAM speed and resolutions are huge. Also ever since COMPOSE extension (somewhere in 2010s IIRC) it was fairly feasible to do direct rendering mostly everywhere. However from what I've talked with EFL folks (among the first ones to support various rendering backends in their GUI) the drivers for accelerated rendering were mostly so bad that it made things actually slower.

                        1. @Agent1378 2y

                          Even proprietary from video card makers are bad?

                          1. @CcxCZ 2y

                            Oh yes, especially those. Hardware vendors don't make good software developers. :-] And it wasn't until ATI got bought by AMD that we've even seen any useful specs for those cards so libre drivers could be written. Everything before was pure reverse engineering.

                          2. @CcxCZ 2y

                            Like, NVidia is single-handedly responsible for the "taint" flag in kernel. I.e. if you load those drivers kernel devs would refuse to look at any issue with that system, as it was notorious for random memory corruptions in unrelated parts of kernel. Really bad code there.

                            1. @Agent1378 2y

                              I remember I used nvidia propiertary drivers with Ubuntu 4/5/6 and the software was quote ok. Recompiled kernel module easily with one command after upgrading kerrnel and booting up in console. And somewhere around Ubuntu 6 or 7 it started to recompile itself automatically when needed on the fly. Compared to nv driver this looked very solid. We even played bzflag often and it ran fine

                              1. @CcxCZ 2y

                                For long time the driver choice boiled down to: Libre drivers: stable & slow NVidia: go fast and break things ATI/AMD: be happy if it works at all I remember circa 2004/2005 (my first Gentoo system!) applications compiled against NVidia OpenGL drivers just crashed when you switched to implementation provided by Mesa. Or vice-versa, can't remember which. Those were the wild times. Ironically I've heard that major contribution to Linux on desktop was the introduction of Xbox. Because suddenly people were okay with having a games-only computer and didn't need fast 3D acceleration on their work machine. That's how the drivers were. (And since I haven't cared about AAA games for a loooong time I don't really how and if that changed)

                  3. @ZgGPuo8dZef58K6hxxGVj3Z2 2y

                    Tbf windows has 2 renderings for gui. You probably know about this indirectly. For example the control panel is gdi+, so is the run box, and every single dialogbox in explorer. On the other hand you have the “new” like 13+ years old xaml which renders with true opacity and using triangles (without depth buffer)

      2. @endisn16h 2y

        it is bad, and silly

        1. @Agent1378 2y

          Answered to that above

          1. @endisn16h 2y

            hate to break it to you, but that wasnt me

            1. @Agent1378 2y

              I k ow but the answer would be the same😁

    2. @ZgGPuo8dZef58K6hxxGVj3Z2 2y

      Windows? No it depends

  19. @azizhakberdiev 2y

    point of repeating frames?

    1. @purplesyringa 2y

      IIRC, the spinner's speed oscillates, so perhaps that's the reason?

      1. @azizhakberdiev 2y

        that spinner undergoes same phase twice, they just placed same frames a second time

      2. @ZgGPuo8dZef58K6hxxGVj3Z2 2y

        No the same spinner is prerendered from the real spinners which is made in xaml. I have the source

    2. @ilia_esmaili 2y

      There are tiny differences between the frames you highlighted

    3. @batuto 2y

      Use it for frozen screen/no progress

    4. @ZgGPuo8dZef58K6hxxGVj3Z2 2y

      They are not they are different just moving way slower

  20. @ilia_esmaili 2y

    Half life does this too

  21. @azizhakberdiev 2y

    It is the same thing like emoji set, they can write something like :lambda: . Unlike loadscreen spinner, it makes sense

  22. @mpolovnev 2y

    A while ago, I tried making a game and I stored a font as a tile set. They're doing the opposite - storing tileset as font

  23. @mpolovnev 2y

    Btw, I assume, the font renderer can draw it in any size and colour with neat sub-pixel borders. Re-using an existing thing is a great engineering practice!

  24. @frayxrulez 2y

    Using fonts for icons is quite a common practice nowadays

  25. @Agent1378 2y

    The thread is a year old but still...

  26. @Agent1378 2y

    Wtf, opensource world, wtf?

    1. @purplesyringa 2y

      Ehh, it's not opensource world's fault, really. Windows provides just one UI, MacOS provides just one UI. Wayland's a protocol that's supposed to have lots of independent implementations. GNOME's ready, so you could argue it's no worse than what other OSes provide

      1. @Agent1378 2y

        I love internet😁

        1. @NanoSector 2y

          probono is anti Wayland and anti systemd, his posts are hilarious

  27. @Agent1378 2y

    And yes, I do understand the amount of work needed, but still...

  28. @Agent1378 2y

    This seems...classic https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277

  29. @Agent1378 2y

    @purplesyringa OK I ve read the above and now I have another question - are there any other "X replacement" projects? The ones that for example maintain full backwards compatibility but just eliminate all performance bottlenecks? Wayland seems to be another "systemd", did pottering wrote it also?

    1. @purplesyringa 2y

      I don't think there's anything other than X and Wayland. Basically, Xorg's codebase is so damn ancient no one wants to touch it, so keeping backwards-compatibility *and* increasing performance is a ridiculously difficult project

      1. @Agent1378 2y

        Well isn't for a client desktop program X is just a collection of APIs? Why not just leave API as it is (well switching the way this API is called, direct via memory vs. Network is allowed) and rewrite the implementation?

        1. @purplesyringa 2y

          I think one of the reasons is that X protocol is inherently slow due to some design flaws, but I don't remember any specifics sadly

          1. @CcxCZ 2y

            I think you're both significantly overestimating the amount of effect the window/display system affects the latency of UI. Like - Gnome on Wayland renders most of it's desktop, including mouse pointer, as a single-threaded JavaScript application embedded into the display manager. So you can actually see the cursor jumping around and struggling to keep up. That's the kind of crap that's in there. X11 protocol does have it's downsides. But from what I remember, excluding stuff that has been addressed a decade ago it's: * no native support for multitouch touchscreens * compose stuff, i.e. rendering with the output of rendered windows — that kind of crap that Compiz did and has thankfully been largely forgotten about — is slower than on Wayland * few applications doing vsync, so you can spot tearing when moving stuff around * lack of access control anywhere, making keyloggers trivial (OTOH I don't believe in the Wayland approach either) And that's pretty much it to my knowledge.

            1. @Agent1378 2y

              Js for rendering desktop windows? Are they nuts.....chromium PC...

              1. @CcxCZ 2y

                Gnome devs? Yes. Circa gtk3 there was big split of gnome vs. other gtk/glib users downstream. And they went "fuck y'all" and it's been progressively getting worse. From my sources inside RedHat they are regarded as an especially insane caste even amongst their own ranks.

                1. @Agent1378 2y

                  Its nice to know that I left ubuntu/gnome world when unity was first introduced.

              2. @CcxCZ 2y

                You have to remember: All Production Code Is Horrible https://www.stilldrinking.org/programming-suck FOSS has a rather small effect on that. What has more substantial effect is factoring things properly, eg. writing programs that do one thing and do it well. Guess what GUI developers do? The opposite of that.

                1. @Agent1378 2y

                  Do one thing and do well - thats debatable. I always liked super advanced do-it-all software. If it was well written and well functioning.

                  1. @CcxCZ 2y

                    That's indeed worth having debate about. Because it's way more about composability, interfaces and general good engineering practices than forcibly restricting programs. Alas I can't commit to that right now.

                2. @Agent1378 2y

                  Everything has its limits. High performance graphical desktop enviroment suitable for any kino of task - is outside of "do one thing and do well" paradigm

                  1. @CcxCZ 2y

                    I disagree there somewhat. Bad interfaces push desktop applications toward monolithic design.

        2. @CcxCZ 2y

          BTW that MIT-SHM extension is for using SHared Memory to transfer large chunks of data and has been in use by default since 90s

    2. @purplesyringa 2y

      Also, I don't think it's like systemd in any reasonable sense. I'd even argue it's less of a "systemd" than Xorg. Wayland is just a specification that has lots of server implementations (GNOME, KDE, etc.) and client implementations (basically, every single GUI framework). That's unlike systemd and Xorg, which are large code bases which don't conform to any specification than their own code

    3. @CcxCZ 2y

      https://www.divergent-desktop.org/blog/2020/10/29/improving-x/

    4. @NanoSector 2y

      Ubuntu tried building Mir but it never took off

    5. @RiedleroD 2y

      X was the systemd, Wayland is its replacement that tries to gobble up less functionality

  30. @Dark_Lord_of_Debian 2y

    So when your computer is lagging and someone asks you what it's doing, you can legitimately say "My computer is reciting the alphabet from A to Z."

  31. @NanoSector 2y

    It’s still active as a Wayland compositor project afaik

  32. @Agent1378 2y

    Did he fixed sound subsystem zoo ?is it working fine now?

    1. @RiedleroD 2y

      pipewire works for everything :shrug:

  33. @Agent1378 2y

    But is it working for all programms? Or some need alsa, some neet pulse and when you install it all - gnome volume mixer stops changing volume😁

    1. @RiedleroD 2y

      pretty sure the "gnome volume mixer" is pavucontrol, i.e. pulse audio volume control (don't ask about the u in pavu)

      1. @RiedleroD 2y

        and yes that still works with pipewire

      2. @sylfn 2y

        VolUme

      3. @callofvoid0 2y

        unit

        1. @RiedleroD 2y

          nope. the official name is "PulseAudio Volume Control"

      4. @sylfn 2y

        why not "easyeffects"?

        1. @RiedleroD 2y

          …why easyeffects

  34. @Agent1378 2y

    Nice

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